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	<title>Comments on: Believing</title>
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	<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/</link>
	<description>Doodle, Design, Discover...</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 06:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatteredpage.net/archives/6#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Speaking of megalomaniacs... How many like to play larger-than-life characters?   I wonder if there's more designers could do to help players create and roleplay eccentric characters.  

My first MMO character was Hallower, a dwarf cleric from the Butcherblock Mountains in EQ, who swore til the end that he was the rightful heir to the dwarven throne and he'd have his revenge on the usurper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of megalomaniacs&#8230; How many like to play larger-than-life characters?   I wonder if there&#8217;s more designers could do to help players create and roleplay eccentric characters.  </p>
<p>My first MMO character was Hallower, a dwarf cleric from the Butcherblock Mountains in EQ, who swore til the end that he was the rightful heir to the dwarven throne and he&#8217;d have his revenge on the usurper.</p>
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		<title>By: Wizzel Cogcarrier Wizzleton IV</title>
		<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Wizzel Cogcarrier Wizzleton IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 04:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatteredpage.net/archives/6#comment-32</guid>
		<description>See, I can't bring myself to play &lt;i&gt;good&lt;/i&gt; characters. In Oblivion, I became a vampire as soon as I could and delighted in the mayhem I caused in the town (both from AI 'sploits and bloodsucking). In EQ2, even my characters that start out in Qeynos have an insidious edge to heir personality. My current character (Wizzel) is a megalomaniac bent on the destruction of both cities, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, I can&#8217;t bring myself to play <i>good</i> characters. In Oblivion, I became a vampire as soon as I could and delighted in the mayhem I caused in the town (both from AI &#8217;sploits and bloodsucking). In EQ2, even my characters that start out in Qeynos have an insidious edge to heir personality. My current character (Wizzel) is a megalomaniac bent on the destruction of both cities, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 15:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatteredpage.net/archives/6#comment-31</guid>
		<description>I consider it well-proven.  It's ancient theory, long pre-dating the emergence of psychology as a separate and scientific field, and even non-behaviorists usually accept the general principle that to indulge in an impulse often, if not always, makes that impulse/desire stronger and more frequent.

Anyway, I agree that playing an evil character is often about the game's design rewarding evil more than good.  In Neverwinter Nights, I slaughtered every civilian in the starting town before ever beginning the intended adventure, because that provided me with a lot of extra loot and xp (I levelled up).  

The assumption of many game designers is that the reward of roleplaying good is simply the roleplay value of being a good character.  That certainly seems a just reward for many gamers, but not for all.  For myself, I guess there's too much of a disconnect between the game fantasy and reality.  Being good in reality is about love...a desire to be with/together, as closely as possible, other human beings or God.  If the game's NPCs are too flat or distant for me to care for (to "love", so to speak), then the reward of their praises and congeniality toward me is hollow and ultimately worthless.  If togetherness is the extent of my reward, then I will roleplay an evil character, because that is rewarded more substantially.

So I guess you could say a goal of designers should be to make their NPCs loveable, as much as possible.  Or, if that's not possible, reward good roleplaying with more than just verbal appreciation.

I think I'm going to repost this on my site in hopes of expanding the discussion.  =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I consider it well-proven.  It&#8217;s ancient theory, long pre-dating the emergence of psychology as a separate and scientific field, and even non-behaviorists usually accept the general principle that to indulge in an impulse often, if not always, makes that impulse/desire stronger and more frequent.</p>
<p>Anyway, I agree that playing an evil character is often about the game&#8217;s design rewarding evil more than good.  In Neverwinter Nights, I slaughtered every civilian in the starting town before ever beginning the intended adventure, because that provided me with a lot of extra loot and xp (I levelled up).  </p>
<p>The assumption of many game designers is that the reward of roleplaying good is simply the roleplay value of being a good character.  That certainly seems a just reward for many gamers, but not for all.  For myself, I guess there&#8217;s too much of a disconnect between the game fantasy and reality.  Being good in reality is about love&#8230;a desire to be with/together, as closely as possible, other human beings or God.  If the game&#8217;s NPCs are too flat or distant for me to care for (to &#8220;love&#8221;, so to speak), then the reward of their praises and congeniality toward me is hollow and ultimately worthless.  If togetherness is the extent of my reward, then I will roleplay an evil character, because that is rewarded more substantially.</p>
<p>So I guess you could say a goal of designers should be to make their NPCs loveable, as much as possible.  Or, if that&#8217;s not possible, reward good roleplaying with more than just verbal appreciation.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;m going to repost this on my site in hopes of expanding the discussion.  =)</p>
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		<title>By: Chas York</title>
		<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Chas York</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatteredpage.net/archives/6#comment-30</guid>
		<description>I should add that much of the psychology IS speculation, and unfortunately, it's very easy to unconsciously taint a study to your own inclinations, so we'll probably not see a satisfactory answer.

I've molded my own views based on Pascal's Wager (a nod, again, to Raph K).  Games CAN influence behavior positively and negatively, sometimes quite powerfully.  I'll design responsibly for a positive effect play in a constructive manner.  

If I'm right, my conscience will be clear.  If I'm wrong, I've lost nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that much of the psychology IS speculation, and unfortunately, it&#8217;s very easy to unconsciously taint a study to your own inclinations, so we&#8217;ll probably not see a satisfactory answer.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve molded my own views based on Pascal&#8217;s Wager (a nod, again, to Raph K).  Games CAN influence behavior positively and negatively, sometimes quite powerfully.  I&#8217;ll design responsibly for a positive effect play in a constructive manner.  </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m right, my conscience will be clear.  If I&#8217;m wrong, I&#8217;ve lost nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chas York</title>
		<link>http://tatteredpage.net/2006/09/20/believing/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Chas York</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatteredpage.net/archives/6#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I never felt the visual interface changed the context that much, but I agree with Aaron.  In some games, the settings, context, and story makes something more acceptable and less "evil" to do.  

For people acting evil as a release:  Well, this IS a little less externally harmful than kicking puppies, but as Aaron suggests, healthy catharsis redirects the negative energy.  It probably isn't any more healthy internally than kicking the pups would have been.

Using standard (and oversimplified) behaviorism of reinforcement, if you gained pleasure out of VIRTUAL acts of malice, you may be reinforcing the inclination to act maliciously to seek more pleasure. If that strengthens beyond your inclination to adhere to social norms, you could, theoretically, start expressing that malice in real life.

Partially going against it is the tendency for players to "see through" to the game itself.  As Raph Koster suggests in "A Theory of Fun" most players don't think "if I pick up this prostitute, rock the car a bit, then kill her, I'll feel better" in GTA.  They think "it's a power-up." 

We laugh at the audacity of a comedian flagrantly breaking social norms, but few of us suggest that his expressions should be universally acceptable.  Sometimes, by testing the limits of a rule, we learn of its value- reinforcing it.  Some, though, get a sadistic glee in externalizing the rage they feel inside, and for them, it doesn't cause them to understand the value in the rule any more, but a reinforcement until they're ready to do this IRL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never felt the visual interface changed the context that much, but I agree with Aaron.  In some games, the settings, context, and story makes something more acceptable and less &#8220;evil&#8221; to do.  </p>
<p>For people acting evil as a release:  Well, this IS a little less externally harmful than kicking puppies, but as Aaron suggests, healthy catharsis redirects the negative energy.  It probably isn&#8217;t any more healthy internally than kicking the pups would have been.</p>
<p>Using standard (and oversimplified) behaviorism of reinforcement, if you gained pleasure out of VIRTUAL acts of malice, you may be reinforcing the inclination to act maliciously to seek more pleasure. If that strengthens beyond your inclination to adhere to social norms, you could, theoretically, start expressing that malice in real life.</p>
<p>Partially going against it is the tendency for players to &#8220;see through&#8221; to the game itself.  As Raph Koster suggests in &#8220;A Theory of Fun&#8221; most players don&#8217;t think &#8220;if I pick up this prostitute, rock the car a bit, then kill her, I&#8217;ll feel better&#8221; in GTA.  They think &#8220;it&#8217;s a power-up.&#8221; </p>
<p>We laugh at the audacity of a comedian flagrantly breaking social norms, but few of us suggest that his expressions should be universally acceptable.  Sometimes, by testing the limits of a rule, we learn of its value- reinforcing it.  Some, though, get a sadistic glee in externalizing the rage they feel inside, and for them, it doesn&#8217;t cause them to understand the value in the rule any more, but a reinforcement until they&#8217;re ready to do this IRL.</p>
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